Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
locations -- Sharon Gaudin

October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
a design for a submersible aircraft.

Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.

The call for research went out earlier this month, and initial proposals
are due by 4 p.m. EST on Dec. 1.

As an agency, DARPA is no stranger to working on and putting out calls
for forward-looking technology.

Late in July, the California Institute of Technology announced that
researchers there had developed a high-resolution microscope, a project
funded in part by DARPA, that is small enough to sit on a computer chip.
The tiny microscope has the magnifying power of a top-quality optical
microscope and is designed so scientists can use it in the field to
analyze blood samples for malaria or to check water supplies for pathogens.

And DARPA is also behind the annual Urban Challenge, a 60-mile race
among up to 20 driverless, self-guided vehicles. The DoD hopes the event
-- and the research that goes into getting the cars ready -- will give
them new technology to use on the battlefield.

In its latest call for technology, the agency said it is looking to
"maintain its tactical advantage for future coastal insertion missions;
DARPA is interested in exploring radical new technologies that can
provide a game changing DoD capability for inserting small teams,
clandestinely, along coastal locations."

In a statement, DARPA said that "prior attempts to demonstrate a vehicle
with the maneuverability of both a submersible and an aircraft have
primarily explored approaches that would endow flight capability to
platforms that were largely optimized for underwater operations." Those
efforts, the agency said, "have been unsuccessful largely because the
design requirements for a submersible and an aircraft are diametrically
opposed."

DARPA noted that a submersible aircraft requires the speed and range of
an aircraft and the loiter capabilities of a boat; along with the
stealth of a submarine.

The agency is first looking for conceptual design proposals. The
proposals must also identify technical challenges and outline models or
experiments that will show how those challenges can be overcome.

Charles Vincent wrote:

> The agency is first looking for conceptual design proposals. The
> proposals must also identify technical challenges and outline models or
> experiments that will show how those challenges can be overcome.

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wos5e_WlYs

Submersing and airplane is easy. Getting it to fly again is the hard part.


"Charles Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>
> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a James
> Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research Projects
> Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with a design
> for a submersible aircraft.
>
> Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department of
> Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built that
> will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.
>
> The call for research went out earlier this month, and initial proposals
> are due by 4 p.m. EST on Dec. 1.
>
> As an agency, DARPA is no stranger to working on and putting out calls for
> forward-looking technology.
>
> Late in July, the California Institute of Technology announced that
> researchers there had developed a high-resolution microscope, a project
> funded in part by DARPA, that is small enough to sit on a computer chip.
> The tiny microscope has the magnifying power of a top-quality optical
> microscope and is designed so scientists can use it in the field to
> analyze blood samples for malaria or to check water supplies for
> pathogens.
>
> And DARPA is also behind the annual Urban Challenge, a 60-mile race among
> up to 20 driverless, self-guided vehicles. The DoD hopes the event -- and
> the research that goes into getting the cars ready -- will give them new
> technology to use on the battlefield.
>
> In its latest call for technology, the agency said it is looking to
> "maintain its tactical advantage for future coastal insertion missions;
> DARPA is interested in exploring radical new technologies that can provide
> a game changing DoD capability for inserting small teams, clandestinely,
> along coastal locations."
>
> In a statement, DARPA said that "prior attempts to demonstrate a vehicle
> with the maneuverability of both a submersible and an aircraft have
> primarily explored approaches that would endow flight capability to
> platforms that were largely optimized for underwater operations." Those
> efforts, the agency said, "have been unsuccessful largely because the
> design requirements for a submersible and an aircraft are diametrically
> opposed."
>
> DARPA noted that a submersible aircraft requires the speed and range of an
> aircraft and the loiter capabilities of a boat; along with the stealth of
> a submarine.
>
> The agency is first looking for conceptual design proposals. The proposals
> must also identify technical challenges and outline models or experiments
> that will show how those challenges can be overcome.

Bill Daniels wrote:

> Submersing and airplane is easy. Getting it to fly again is the hard part.
>
>

Naw.
That's not hard at all.
Just a note tot eh special effects department.
"need bubbles in the rocket exhaust"

On Oct 9, 4:05*pm, "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> Submersing and airplane is easy. *Getting it to fly again is the hard part.
>
> "Charles Vincent" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
> > locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>
> > October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a James
> > Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research Projects
> > Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with a design
> > for a submersible aircraft.
>
> > Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department of
> > Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built that
> > will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.
>
> > The call for research went out earlier this month, and initial proposals
> > are due by 4 p.m. EST on Dec. 1.
>
> > As an agency, DARPA is no stranger to working on and putting out calls for
> > forward-looking technology.
>
> > Late in July, the California Institute of Technology announced that
> > researchers there had developed a high-resolution microscope, a project
> > funded in part by DARPA, that is small enough to sit on a computer chip..
> > The tiny microscope has the magnifying power of a top-quality optical
> > microscope and is designed so scientists can use it in the field to
> > analyze blood samples for malaria or to check water supplies for
> > pathogens.
>
> > And DARPA is also behind the annual Urban Challenge, a 60-mile race among
> > up to 20 driverless, self-guided vehicles. The DoD hopes the event -- and
> > the research that goes into getting the cars ready -- will give them new
> > technology to use on the battlefield.
>
> > In its latest call for technology, the agency said it is looking to
> > "maintain its tactical advantage for future coastal insertion missions;
> > DARPA is interested in exploring radical new technologies that can provide
> > a game changing DoD capability for inserting small teams, clandestinely,
> > along coastal locations."
>
> > In a statement, DARPA said that "prior attempts to demonstrate a vehicle
> > with the maneuverability of both a submersible and an aircraft have
> > primarily explored approaches that would endow flight capability to
> > platforms that were largely optimized for underwater operations." Those
> > efforts, the agency said, "have been unsuccessful largely because the
> > design requirements for a submersible and an aircraft are diametrically
> > opposed."
>
> > DARPA noted that a submersible aircraft requires the speed and range of an
> > aircraft and the loiter capabilities of a boat; along with the stealth of
> > a submarine.
>
> > The agency is first looking for conceptual design proposals. The proposals
> > must also identify technical challenges and outline models or experiments
> > that will show how those challenges can be overcome.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

They did that with a vintage Boeing model. Can't call the model
number but they took off and dumped in the lake due to lack of fuel.

Harry K

In article >,
Charles Vincent > wrote:

> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>
> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
> James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
> Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
> a design for a submersible aircraft.
>

What's the problem? ALL aircraft are submersible! It is the part about
USING them again that is the problem!

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Harry K wrote:

> They did that with a vintage Boeing model. Can't call the model
> number but they took off and dumped in the lake due to lack of fuel.
>
> Harry K

It wasn't in a lake, but rather out in the pacific. If they had set it
down in fresh water, cleaning it up again wouldn't have been quite as bad.

Tony

In article >,
Charles Vincent > wrote:

> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>
> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
> James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
> Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
> a design for a submersible aircraft.
>
> Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
> of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
> that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.

The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
section of the Seaview.
(You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)

Anthony W wrote:
> Harry K wrote:
>
>> They did that with a vintage Boeing model. Can't call the model
>> number but they took off and dumped in the lake due to lack of fuel.
>>
>> Harry K
>
> It wasn't in a lake, but rather out in the pacific. If they had set it
> down in fresh water, cleaning it up again wouldn't have been quite as bad.
>
> Tony

It was a Boeing Stratoliner. It used the wings and tail of a B17 on an
airliner. Went down near Seattle in Elliot Bay.


<www.komonews.com/stories/17560.htm>

<www.noontimenet.com/photos/BoeingStratoliner.swf>

and a good history:

<http://www.air-and-space.com/Boeing%20307%20N19903.htm>

Actually this whole idea reminds me of the unfortunate Convair F2Y Sea Dart
project.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F2Y_Sea_Dart

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Charles Vincent > wrote:
>
>> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
>> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>>
>> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
>> James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
>> Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
>> a design for a submersible aircraft.
>>
>> Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
>> of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
>> that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.
>
> The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
> The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
> section of the Seaview.
> (You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
> referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)

John Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Charles Vincent > wrote:
>
>> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
>> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>>
>> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
>> James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
>> Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
>> a design for a submersible aircraft.
>>
>> Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
>> of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
>> that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.
>
> The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
> The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
> section of the Seaview.
> (You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
> referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)

It always entered the water at and angle and velocity guaranteed to
cause severe injury or death to the occupants.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Charles Vincent > wrote:
>
>> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
>> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>>
>> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
>> James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
>> Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
>> a design for a submersible aircraft.
>>
>
> What's the problem? ALL aircraft are submersible! It is the part about
> USING them again that is the problem!
>
> --
> Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

It seems that the government has excess funding again that it needs to get
rid of. Even in an era of extreme budget deficit, they are still spending
on doubtful projects.

Stu

Charles Vincent wrote:


> In a statement, DARPA said that "prior attempts to demonstrate a vehicle
> with the maneuverability of both a submersible and an aircraft have
> primarily explored approaches that would endow flight capability to
> platforms that were largely optimized for underwater operations." Those
> efforts, the agency said, "have been unsuccessful largely because the
> design requirements for a submersible and an aircraft are diametrically
> opposed."
>
> DARPA noted that a submersible aircraft requires the speed and range of
> an aircraft and the loiter capabilities of a boat; along with the
> stealth of a submarine.
>
> The agency is first looking for conceptual design proposals. The
> proposals must also identify technical challenges and outline models or
> experiments that will show how those challenges can be overcome.

Perhaps the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum will enter theirs.

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/KleinBernhard/6559.htm


Kevin Gallimore


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On Oct 9, 2:51*pm, Charles Vincent > wrote:
> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not impossible.

I think they started in from the wrong direction, in that they tried
to make a submersable fly.

But aside from that... How big is a 'team'? How deep does it have to
dive? How fast does it have to fly? And how far?

Small team, say four men including the pilot.

One method that's worth exploring is to use the same prop for both air
& water.

You'd definitely want to do something about those air-scoops -)

Major problem would be getting an airframe to sink. Lotsa voids to
trap air going one way, water going the other.

If it didn't have to dive too deeply, say 33 feet or less, you could
probably use one of the new diesel engines for both airborne and
submerged propulsion.

Any way you hack it, it sounds like a fun project :-)

-R.S.Hoover

In article
>,
" > wrote:

> On Oct 9, 2:51*pm, Charles Vincent > wrote:
> > Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
> > locations -- Sharon Gaudin
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> Not impossible.
>
> I think they started in from the wrong direction, in that they tried
> to make a submersable fly.
>
> But aside from that... How big is a 'team'? How deep does it have to
> dive? How fast does it have to fly? And how far?
>
> Small team, say four men including the pilot.
>
> One method that's worth exploring is to use the same prop for both air
> & water.
>
Too much density difference between water and air!



> You'd definitely want to do something about those air-scoops -)

You'd have to supply oxgen to the engine(s).

>
> Major problem would be getting an airframe to sink. Lotsa voids to
> trap air going one way, water going the other.

Getting it to sink isn't a problem -- getting it to FLOAT afterwards is!

>
> If it didn't have to dive too deeply, say 33 feet or less, you could
> probably use one of the new diesel engines for both airborne and
> submerged propulsion.
>
> Any way you hack it, it sounds like a fun project :-)
>
> -R.S.Hoover

It also sounds like a project that sacrifices all of its payload to two
dissimilar missions -- submergence and flying.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.

Tony

In article >, Dan > wrote:
>John Smith wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Charles Vincent > wrote:
>>
>>> Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
>>> locations -- Sharon Gaudin
>>>
>>> October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
>>> James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
>>> Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
>>> a design for a submersible aircraft.
>>>
>>> Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
>>> of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
>>> that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.
>>
>> The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
>> The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
>> section of the Seaview.
>> (You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
>> referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)
>
> It always entered the water at and angle and velocity guaranteed to
>cause severe injury or death to the occupants.

Nah. You just don't understand modern engineering.

It had big RASP (Rocket-Assist-Sea-Penetration) packs which were triggered
_just_ before water contact. The massive forward thrust was exactly offset
by the increased drag of the water, and thus, there was zero net change in
velocity.

*snicker*



As for the DARPA project, it's *EASY*!!

Start with the basic V-22 Osprey design, watertight the entire hull, and
structurally reinforce as needed, for the maximum desired operating depth.

Next replace the Rolls Royce AE1107C engines with appropriate electric
drives. Extend the drive shaft out the rear of the wing, with a
variable pitch _water_ propeller on that end. Add clutching so that
either end can be engaged/disengaged independently.

Lastly, pull out the fuel tanks and replace with a 'suitcase nuke'
power plant.

Revisit the aircraft structural components, and scale up for the
increased weight load.

Add ballast tank(s) as needed to achieve neutral buoyancy.

All the rest is 'implementation details' - trivial!


Like I said, nothing difficult about it. One might even say it was
a "no-brainer". <snicker>

In article >,
Anthony W > wrote:

> Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
> after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
> real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
> materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.

The Ohio Historical Society has one of, if not the sole surviving
Inflatoplane. They inherited it from the defunct aviation museum that
was located at Port Columbus International Airport/KCMH. Sadly, it will
never see the light of day, again.

John Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Anthony W > wrote:
>
>> Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
>> after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
>> real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
>> materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.
>
> The Ohio Historical Society has one of, if not the sole surviving
> Inflatoplane. They inherited it from the defunct aviation museum that
> was located at Port Columbus International Airport/KCMH. Sadly, it will
> never see the light of day, again.

It's too bad they won't give it to a real aviation museum.

I'd think that anybody that was seriously interested in resurrecting the
project could learn all they need to get started from the history
channel show the subject.

Tony

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:02:15 GMT, Anthony W >
wrote:

>Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
>after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
>real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
>materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.
>
>Tony
*****************************************

As I recall the inflatable airplane was to be air dropped to a downed
pilot and he could inflate (think the little engine had an air pump
built in????and take off and fly back to a safe area. Range was short.
Maybe 50 miles???

Others may have a better memory than mine but being a Fighter Pilot
was interested as I might have to use if they deployed it.

An other system they worked on and made a couple of practice
extractions, was a C-130 with a large "V" set of arms on the nose. A
nylon rope and harness with a balloon and a small cylinder of
compressed helium completed the ground set that was dropped to pilot
on the ground.

Pilot strapped himself into the harness and after making contact with
the recovery C-130 inflated the colored balloon and let the nylon rope
out to its full length. Pilot set on ground facing the approaching
aircraft and bird made a low pass and caught the nylon rope in the
center of the "V" where it actuated a locking device to hold the rope
tight. As bird flew over pilot and rope tightened it picked the pilot
up off the ground and he trailed the C-130. A crew in the back of bird
standing on the door, had a pole with a hook on it to catch the rope.
When rope was caught and pulled in the bird the crew then pulled the
extracted Pilot in and all went home happy to the bar (maybe mission
whisky from Flight Surgeon :o).

I had some experience picking targets off the ground using a nylon
rope. Bird would pick up bridal and initiate a climb and target would
slowly lift off ground and move in the opposite direction of aircraft
flight for 5-10 feet and then as nylon rope felt the full weight it
acted like a big rubber band and the target accelerated smoothly to
the aircraft speed,

I'm sure the pilot retrieval system had the same characteristics and
downed pilot got a smooth low "G" ride.

Just another War story.

Big John

In article >,
Anthony W > wrote:

> John Smith wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Anthony W > wrote:
> >
> >> Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
> >> after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
> >> real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
> >> materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.
> >
> > The Ohio Historical Society has one of, if not the sole surviving
> > Inflatoplane. They inherited it from the defunct aviation museum that
> > was located at Port Columbus International Airport/KCMH. Sadly, it will
> > never see the light of day, again.
>
> It's too bad they won't give it to a real aviation museum.
>
> I'd think that anybody that was seriously interested in resurrecting the
> project could learn all they need to get started from the history
> channel show the subject.

I forgot to mention that the donor also provided an original copy of the
promotional film Goodyear made about the Inflatoplane. The museum made a
copy onto video tape and it ran next to the aircraft display for several
years.